• Hi all and welcome to TheWoodHaven2 brought into the 21st Century, kicking and screaming! We all have Alasdair to thank for the vast bulk of the heavy lifting to get us here, no more so than me because he's taken away a huge burden of responsibility from my shoulders and brought us to this new shiny home, with all your previous content (hopefully) still intact! Please peruse and feed back. There is still plenty to do, like changing the colour scheme, adding the banner graphic, tweaking the odd setting here and there so I have added a new thread in the 'Technical Issues, Bugs and Feature Requests' forum for you to add any issues you find, any missing settings or just anything you'd like to see added/removed from the feature set that Xenforo offers. We will get to everything over the coming weeks so please be patient, but add anything at all to the thread I mention above and we promise to get to them over the next few days/weeks/months. In the meantime, please enjoy!

New Joinery Business - Advice Needed

will1983

will1983

New Shoots
Joined
Nov 4, 2015
Messages
136
Reaction score
0
Location
Crewe, Cheshire
Hi, I know we have a number of Professionals on here so I hope someone will be able/willing to give me a steer on my new career.

After over 15 years working as a professional Civil Engineer I have decided I am ready for a change and to do something for a living that I really enjoy. I want to set myself up as a Commercial Joiner doing domestic cabinet making and joinery work in the Cheshire area.

Presently my intention is to specialise in alcove units, floating shelves, kitchen islands/renovations, installation of fitted furniture and the usual sort of bread and butter work of fitting doors, skirtings and architraves.

I have a 300sq' workshop (converted garage) with the usual stationary tools, table saw, mitre saw, bandsaw, morticer, drill press etc and the usual host of cordless portable stuff. I have plans to buy myself a TS55 and domino with the accompanying extractor. The actual woodworking side of things doesn't concern me to much, I think I'm more than competent to be able to do a decent job.

However I am at a bit of a loss with the actual running of a small business, advertising, work winning, invoicing and record keeping. What advice do the Pros have for a new starter on these?

Hopefully someone will be willing to share some of their knowledge, if so thank you in advance.

P.S. I have set up a website (another first for me), Cheshire Cats Workshop What are your thoughts? Criticism welcomed!
Mods, if this is in violation to the rules I apologise, please remove if so.
 
Best of luck with your new venture! I cannot help on the small business side, but this does come up fairly often over on UKworkshop.co.uk and as a much larger forum there are a larger range of responses and advice.

My only comment so far would be on your website title - think about what people google for when they want a carpenter. The average punter probably doesn't know what a joiner is, or a cabinet maker. Will they google 'cats' when looking for a carpenter? Probably not. So how are you going to optimise your web presence so you come up when people 'do' google for handyman, carpenter, builder etc? This can be quite a skill and it might be worth going to a professional - as usual depends on cost etc but this is going to be your main source of business and a 24/7 shop window onto your skills - make sure people can find you easily, can see what you can offer (gallery with clear pictures AND an explanation) and maybe a WIP or two of jobs. Customer testimonials in time etc. Everything you would look for if you were wanting to hire a tradesman to do a job - things to reassure you they would do a competent, quality job at a reasonable price (everyone has a different version of reasonable!)

Your website is hosted by WIX and looks 'handmade' - not to say it looks rubbish, but it is not as professional as it might be. It has the WIX logo at the top for example, it has a gmail address and doesn't have a gallery - the links simply take you to a different part of one page. Investing in a professional photographer to take good shots of properly lit work is also something to consider.

Hope that is of some use - not trying to put you off, but to make a small business work you have to be as slick as you can be to stand out from the crowd (or have a strong reputation through word of mouth, which takes time).
 
Best of luck with this Will.

I always say this: most competent craftsmen can make the sort of stuff you are planning to make. That isn't going to be your issue. Selling it is the issue. Selling your services is what is going to determine whether you sink or swim.

The other thing that distinguishes pros from decent DIYers is the quality of the finish. You need to be able to spray finish MDF to utter perfection. Maillee, formerly of this parish, was brilliant at it, churned good work out at a phenomenal rate, and still ended up going bust, so be prepared for this being a really difficult way of earning a living.

Your website needs a little help. Take on board Steve's advice. I'd add that the semi-religious quote from Michaelangelo would put me off, and might well put others off too. The photo of the floating shelves, with unfinished plasterwork, isn't helping your cause either. And you simply haven't got enough photos on there. A room screen and a couple of shelves seems to be the sum total of your work. Again, that may put potential clients off. You need to do a couple of projects and get them completely finished and beautifully photographed before you can let that website "live".

Good luck with it. I hope things work out for you. Take lots of photos for us!
 
Wow thank you for such a comprehensive reply StevieB!

Yes this whole website design thing is new to me, so any advice is really welcome, as I'm sure you've worked out I'm more suited to chopping stuff up and banging in nails! :D

I do plan to add a few pages to the page, a gallery being top of the list. I was also thinking of putting in some sort of blog page or making more of the link to my Instagram page, what do you think?

As for what to search for, I have indexed it with Google (another first) and filled in some SEO terms like cabinet maker and joiner. I'll change that to include carpenter. Is there anything else I should know about this as its all a bit of a black art to me!?

Thanks again! :obscene-drinkingcheers:
 
Thanks Mike, I agree about the photos, I've got plenty so will get a gallery and better ones up in the next few days.

This is the first draft of the website and live for just this very purpose.This is exactly the sort of feedback I was looking for.

Thanks guys, I owe you both a beer!
 
There are a couple of lads (not sure if they're registered on here since we rebuilt) local to us who do exactly what you are proposing.

Duncan Cheslett (AKA the Alcove Man, google him) specialises in alcoves (and from what I've seen of his work he's bloody good at them) so you can get a good idea of the level of quality you need to be at as he is in Stockport and works all around Cheshire so in essence you will be competing with him.

Also Karl Ley who has his workshop in Knutsford and does alcove work amongst a lot of other stuff like full kitchens etc. Again, working around the same geography so have a look at what they have in terms of online presence so you know what you are competing with in terms of quality, but also what you might need to look at to distinguish you from them.

All the best with the venture mate, and heed Mike's advice. Mailee was churning our top quality work at a rate everyone on here was amazed at, and still couldn't make it work sadly, so while I offer you every encouragement, bear that in mind.
 
All the best.

Having worked in the public sector for the whole of my working life, I have nothing but admiration for small businesses like you propose.

Good Luck!
 
Thanks for the heads up about the other two guys

Never heard of Duncan before now, Google shows his operating area far enough away from me not to be a problem. As a side note, his Google reviews don't look great, I wonder if he's seen them? A couple of people writing that sort of thing could really do your business harm.

I've seen some of Karl's posts over on the woodworkuk forum and was wondering where in mid Cheshire he was. There wasn't anything recent posted so I was wondering if he was still in business. Looking at his site it looks like he's doing really well for himself. I might have to look him up, better to know your competition eh? Long shot but there might even be room for collaboration?

Both their websites are great and easy to read so I really need to get mine sorted out to be able to compete. Any web designers on here??? :eusa-whistle: :eusa-whistle:

I do have an escape plan if this doesn't work out but I really don't want to have to put that into action. I want to be my own boss, successes and failures are all mine then. I have a real passion for building things and being no stranger to hard graft I am prepared to give this my all and work whatever hours are needed to be successful.


Cheers Malc, :D
 
Just read a couple of those reviews on FB and it doesn't look great does it...

I don't know how much Duncan is doing now as I get the impression he is semi retired and playing a lot more golf than working, so maybe he was on a wind down on those jobs and has given up, really don't know. I have seen a bit of his work and it's very good, so those reviews aren't reflective of his portfolio, but as you say, if that's all people see then that's all they have to form their opinion.

Karl is doing really well and lives around the corner from me. I'm sure he wouldn't mind having a chat with you as he always welcomes people into the workshop if he's around. I can introduce you if you like...
 
Yeah its a shame when people put negative reviews online, it only takes a minute to type something like that and the damage is done. If there is anything I've learnt in my time in the Civil Engineering world it's that when the inevitable differences of opinion occur they are dealt with properly and professionally.

As for a meet up with Karl; Yes please Mark, it would be great to chat to someone already doing it.
I'm hoping that the scale of my intended market is small enough that it shouldn't impact on his current trade.

Even with 300+sq' of workshop and half as much again that can be turned over to a finishing clean room I still don't think I've got the space to be building full kitchens or massive built in units.
 
Hi Will...what all the others have said. My take?

Don't underprice yourself.
Don't underestimate how long things will take.
Have spare belts etcetera for the machines.
Add £50 on each job to cover cost of glue screws abrasives etc
Don't go rushing off to follow up every lead. Ask people to send you a photo of 'where the item will go so you can 'get a feel of the area it will sit in...or similar bullS. You will be surprised how many timewasters there are.

More to come later. Typing on this mobile phone is a pain!

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk
 
It's a small world, two miles down the road and I went to school with the lass in your Instagram feed.

My woodworking is in cold storage at the moment, but I can help with the business side of things.

Your online presence (not just a website) will be a big draw for your work, and personal recommendations will keep you busy. You've seen the websites of your competition, and the main element is high-quality images of good, clean work. Keep the fluff to a minimum and sell the lifestyle that your potential clientele are looking for. It's not just an alcove, it's an alcove that's beautifully made and fitted and has well-placed items on it.

Pricing is going to be a big part of getting off the ground. Sell yourself cheaply now, and you'll never move away from that image. Unfortunately, price yourself too highly and you won't get the work to begin with.
Have you any thoughts on an hourly/daily rate? As much as you might be selling a quoted-for product/service, you need to have an idea of how much your time is worth.
This is particularly pertinent. Most small businesses fail because of cash-flow, rather than going bankrupt.

Is it worth investigating going part-time with your current day job? Security blanket of a bit of regular income, but enough time to get things moving and off the ground.

Apart from the obvious, I'd also aim to:
- always work cleanly and leave a clients site as clean, if not cleaner than you found it.
- communication is key. Being delayed is one thing, not telling your client and just not turning up is another.
- quote well and promptly. A quick line-drawing is all that's required at quote stage, the detailed drawings and workings out are done once you've won the work, and the deposit should cover the time you spend on it.
- Be insured. Public and product liability at a minimum.
- Setup website with a proper domain and with an e-mail address of at that domain - free services look amateur and don't instill confidence to your potential clients. (I can recommend wordpress as a good tool to assemble a website, and you can host with them and provide your own domain name).
- What type of business are you setting up? Sole trader/ltd etc? This will dictate how you need to keep records/invoice/quote etc.
- You will make mistakes, just be honest, communicate well, and always present them with a solution.


Definitely don't want to put a dampener on your enthusiasm, I'm actually quite jealous, but you should try and start on the right footing and get the foundations in place now, as you won't at a later stage once everything takes off (fingers crossed).
Mostly though, best of luck!
Andy.
 
You've had some good advice from people that know more about your proposed trade than I do so I can't help with the best way to market yourself etc.

I'd also like to stress the correct pricing thing. Making stuff to order and doing it at the right price is difficult - very difficult. I was in business for 25 years+ making mostly 'specials' - custom made products. You price all the materials and estimate the labour...add a margin for overheads and a profit margin... maybe build in a discount by bumping the price a bit more. Then you quote your price and lets say get the job.

All goes well you make some money. Suppose though you make a mistake and waste a lot of time and materials remaking. If your margin is good you survive and put it down to experience. If all your work is tight priced you are in trouble.

Making stuff is hard work. Buying things and selling them is much easier if you have salesman skills.

I don't envy you starting on this road. It is going to be tough. We dealt with other businesses not domestic customers so drawings and specifications were agreed. People can be unreasonable so make sure what you intend to supply is made as clear as possible before you put the money into making.

Oh and my business started as a part time activity so don't discount having a job that fits while you test the water.

Good luck.
 
I see others are talking about pricing. I said earlier I spent my whole working life in the public sector and therefore I have no experience in what you are asking advice on.

But this chap has.

I found this chap, whom others have mentioned , honest and interesting and in this vid, he gives examples of how he prices his work. What was interesting, some of the comments from people who have absolutely no idea what stuff costs, including your expertise in time.

[youtube]4E0bfyJwIoU[/youtube]

PS. He does alcoves, too!
 
I’m not saying the Internet isn’t a good marketing tool but from what I’ve been told it can be full of time wasters.
Personally I’ve always got work from recommendations, doing a good quality clean job is key to getting your name passed on. What I like about this way of getting work is chances are the prospective customer has seen your work & knows what they will be getting, I’ve always found customers expectations are the hardest things to judge.

Always get everything down in writing & be as specific as you can with what you will be doing, also if supplying materials ask for a deposit if not prior to starting the job then as soon as the materials are delivered to site.

Don’t bother with a TS 55 get the Mafell MT55, the scribe function is worth the extra as is the ability to clamp the track less than an inch from the cut. If you buy the basic saw from Mafell & the tracks etc from Bosch it makes it a lot cheaper.

Best of luck
 
I cannot comment on the work side but I have started a few businesses some successful some not. I have also worked as a consultant in a variety of businesses from the smallest to the largest and in the public sector so I can give you some ideas about what you need in the way of business skills.

Getting the pricing right is probably the most critical skill, but getting it right and not being able to close the deal is a waste of time. So you will also need sales skills. I can say from experience that selling skills are the most difficult to acquire if you are not a natural salesman. You do not need to be able to sell fridges to eskimos but knowing the basics will be a great benefit.

The majority of company failures both large and small are caused by lack of cash flow. To manage cash flow you will need to become acquainted with accounts, not necessarily in great detail but sufficiently to keep track of your income, expenditure and when it is going to come in and go out so you can identify when you are going to have a problem.

Keeping overheads down can be critical, when you have a quiet period high overheads can kill you unless you make enough in the busy periods to survive the quiet ones. I have seen many business fail due to spending commitments (Car leases, staff, premises, equipment on HP, etc) made in the good times that cannot be supported during the lean times.

Recommendations are the best way to get business but they are difficult to build up. The internet/social media etc is the new way of getting business but as had already been said it can attract a lot of time wasters. You need to develop the skills and questions that will help weed out the time wasters. Many prospects just want the cheapest and the richest have not always got their money by spending it unnecessarily so the size of house and car is not always a good guide to their desire or ability to pay. Do not expect/plan to get work from every quote. If you do you are too cheap. Others can give an idea of what percentage of quotes you can expect to get in your business but generally 2 from 3 would be good, in some businesses 1 in 5 would be good.

There are lots of chancers out their who will get you insurance to pay for the replacement X that you damaged beyond repair when you dragged your stuff over it, knocked it over, spilt paint on it etc even though it was already damaged on the day you visited to quote. So take photos if possible or make notes of the condition before you start. Get the customer to move anything breakable/valuable in your way before you start. Get lots of dust sheets and blankets and use them.

Make sure you have a good contract and keep track of changes and document them with the customer so they are not a surprise and you stand a chance of getting paid for them.

Remember you are a business and you need to get paid a decent amount for what you do, it is sometimes possible to forget this.

After you get all the above right you only have to go out and make it while satisfying the changing demands of the customer :)

Good luck

Kevin
 
Back at the keyboard!

Be ready for customers who ask you for a quote, send you the photos, you visit them. You prepare a quote and then. Then nowt. Several ways to go. Send an email asking them if they'd received the quote and had any questions. Pick up the telephone and speak to them. Do nowt. That's the best response. If they want it, they will contact you. Only be prepared to hear bugger all from them for several months and then at the beginning of December get a call saying 'Right Ho..we'd like it before Christmas'. Only you can decide how to respond. I said 'No'.

Make sure you get a deposit upfront to cover material costs.

Make sure you document everything including what the deliverables are and the stage payments.

Not every customer is reasonable. My first customer has become a very good friend. He was a referee for my Firearms Certificate. I had another customer who was a complete arsehole. We ended up parting company with him agreeing to pay half of what I'd billed(only a few hundred so not too fussed) and getting the final work organised by himself.

Listed building work is good. There is a dearth of people who are interested in refurbishing to making traditional proper sash windows with authentic mouldings. Plus you don't get any grief from Building Control. You get it from Conservation Officers instead :lol:

I'll post more as I think about it.
 
Hi Will

You've had some good advice on here.

I'm not a great businessman but a woodworker that gets paid for doing something I love doing, here's my 2 cents worth of how to start up.

Keep your overheads down as low as possible until you are established.

When pricing remember it will normally take longer than you think.

Keep all your paperwork in order, this is an area that can make or break a business.
Remember this still has to be done when your crazy busy.

Get a fantastic accountant! he will save you a bunch of cash, when I was in the UK I tended to try and find an ex tax man, they know all the tricks.

I wouldn't be too worried about websites, yes have one, it is what is expected from a professional, my website to date has only got me one job and for a massive 30€ !
If your interested this is it... http://fineinteriorwoodwork.com

Remember the clients are always right, learn to bite your tongue.

When you are established buy the best quality tools and machinery you can afford, they will speed you up and make you more money, and if your like me and like tools they put a big smile on your face every time you use them.

Always be clean and tidy, appearance and you work site.

Make every job you do an awesome job, it will get you other work in the future.



Jonathan











Sent from my SM-J530F using Tapatalk
 
As a retired Chartered Civil Engineer I loved my job, so wants wrong with it or is it you want to be your own boss?

Rod
 
Wow, what a series of responses to walk into work to read this morning.
Thank you all so much for all that amazing advice! This place certainly is worth it's weight in gold!

Peter Millard's channel and the Podcast he hosts with Andy Mac from Gosforth Handyman has been the kick up the arse I needed to put this plan into action so I am well acquainted with the work those guys do. I actually support Andy on Patreon as way of a little thank you for all the information he shares.

Contracts - I wasn't going to go down the route of having a formal contract initially as I doubt the jobs I'll start off doing will be big enough. However I was going to include the following with each formal quote I send to customers;

  • Accurate written description and basic drawing of the work at initial quote with drawings/3D model to follow (dependant on size/complexity).
    Anticipated timescale including workshop start date, install date, completion date and post install review visit.
    Payment strategy, 25% to secure booking, 25% to start works in the workshop, 25% at start of install and balance on completion of install. This will be the minimum I will accept, payments can be combined if the customer desires.
    Payment by bank transfer or cash only. Depending on the success of this I may look at getting a mobile card reader so I can take payments immediately.
    Responsibility for waste removal.
    Room to be cleared prior to arriving.
    Joint precondition survey of the room (with photos) before starting work.
    Statement about the impact of change on the total price for the work.

Pricing - my initial strategy was going to be: Estimate the time required to build, finish and install a project. Add an additional period in for risk, length dependant on complexity/size of the job. Finally add the materials cost (incl handling/sourcing charge for unusual or unwieldy materials). I think this should be fairly robust but accuracy will improve as I gain more experience.

Advertising - I am going to contact my local A5 trades booklet of adverts and get an advert in there after Christmas, all the local businesses I've spoken to recommend it as a great source of work.

Website - I've taken on board the earlier comments RE the website and made a few immediate changes until the process of taking some better photos is complete. I'll get a nice gallery page up once that's sorted. A friend who is a professional photographer has offered to help out with this FOC, which was nice of him. This friend has also recommended an accountant to so will arrange a meeting before the end of the year.

Emergency Plan - There is a national shortage of decent Civil Engineers so I will be talking to the accountant about also setting up as a freelance Civil Engineer/Supervisor/Planning Engineer. With my qualifications and experience there is work available at just a few days notice. This should resolve any short term cash flow problems. Hopefully this business will just sit dormant but will be ready if I need to use it.

Rod, I have loved working in Civil Engineering. I have spent 15 years working for Tier 1 contractors on some of the best projects in the country and built some amazing stuff. However now I am ready for a change. I have always wanted to see if I have the metal to be my on boss and now is the time to do it before I'm too old.
Chartered, well done, I'm only lowly EngTech! Incidentally I am at One Great George Street on Monday.

Thanks again to everyone who took the time to share their thoughts with me.

Will
 
Will,
I think your payment plan sounds about right. I've certainly read of clients pulling out when the item is finished in the workshop ready to install.
That is the worst situation for a bespoke job. So looking at how you are covered financially at each stage seems right to me.
So say if they pull out at any stage you are at least covered and possible a modicum of profit.
The deposit money should cover all materials and the time taken to order. The money to start work should be covering all labour and a bit of profit. The payment to install should cover all that labour element.
The final payment should be all profit really and if it includes snagging -especially if it is your fault :D - they rightly that cuts into the profit a bit but not disastrously.

I used to be in a totally different line of work but having to quote for work. Giving in to requests for discounts is a very dangerous game. As well of the quality of your work, the other thing that passes round by word of mouth will be any price reduction you gave on the last job.
I used to entertain reductions but always by taking something out of the deliverables or using cheaper materials. Never ever give the breakdown of labour and materials as that can be used against you on future jobs.

Best of luck

Bob
 
I'd take advice on the payment scheduling from those who run similar businesses. Personally, thinking as a customer I might be a bit put off by 4 payments for one item.
 
As someone that was happy happy to be salaried and have weekends off and paid holiday and sick leave I can only wish you luck.

Another chap around here to ask is Pinch otherwise known as Paul. He has had to close is business and seek alternative employment but he is a top bloke and I am sure would be happy to share his wisdom and experiences. Drop him a PM.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top