• Hi all and welcome to TheWoodHaven2 brought into the 21st Century, kicking and screaming! We all have Alasdair to thank for the vast bulk of the heavy lifting to get us here, no more so than me because he's taken away a huge burden of responsibility from my shoulders and brought us to this new shiny home, with all your previous content (hopefully) still intact! Please peruse and feed back. There is still plenty to do, like changing the colour scheme, adding the banner graphic, tweaking the odd setting here and there so I have added a new thread in the 'Technical Issues, Bugs and Feature Requests' forum for you to add any issues you find, any missing settings or just anything you'd like to see added/removed from the feature set that Xenforo offers. We will get to everything over the coming weeks so please be patient, but add anything at all to the thread I mention above and we promise to get to them over the next few days/weeks/months. In the meantime, please enjoy!

Teutonic Tax Madness

Andy Kev.

Nordic Pine
Joined
Jan 4, 2021
Messages
722
Reaction score
59
I imagine that one of the few things which unites human beings around the world is the nightmare of dealing with their tax offices. German govt loves bureaucracy and regulation so I suspect that they compete in the same league as HMRC.

Last year I got a letter from them, opened it and saw the title Grundsteuer B (Land Tax B) and stupidly dismissed it with the thought that it was all paid for by direct debit and so did not need to read further. Had I read further I would have understood that some politician with nothing better to do had found some sort of anomaly in the administration of said tax and had then gone to the top court and won the case. This meant that every property owner in the country had to tell the tax office what it already knew about their properties.

A reminder letter a month or two back pointed out that I was enjoying a graciously extended deadline to some time later in this month. To not make the relevant declaration in time would result in a fine etc. So I got on with it.

The guidance from the tax office to filling in the relevant annex of the tax office's own form ran to 41 pages. Admittedly most of those were screen shots and a lot of the commentary was to the effect of, "You can ignore this line" (so why not shorten the XX!!*!? form then?).

Then it turned out that the key questions could only be answered with the help of a document related to my flat which I would have to obtain from the Land Registry. So off I toddled to the LR only to be told on the intercom at the door that they don't see people in person any more - except by special appointment - and that I had to apply online. Until this last Monday it was the local regional hols which meant that I might not get it quickly. As it happens it arrived the day before yesterday and I sat down yesterday evening to answer a hitherto unanswerable three questions.

The tax office software kept telling me that I was putting information into one question which was inconsistent with the rest of the document. The 41 pages were of no help, not one little bit of help. Then I noticed a "?" icon and clicked on that. It said words to the effect of, "For example a property has three bits of data, A, B and C and they give the answer of D". And that was it.

Two of the three factors were purely bureaucratic quantities (a sort of administrative algebra) and one was the real world measurement of the surface area of the land. Now I'm not totally stupid and I do have a scientific education and a BSc and an MA but it took me 20 minutes to work out that this description must be another way of saying that there was a mathematical equation involved. A further 10 mins led me to the discovery that A/B x C = D. The computer then told me I'd got it right and I could finally hit "send".

But some questions arise:

a. If it takes a moderately educated bloke 30 mins to work out how to answer a question, how do they expect a less educated person to deal with it? Should they perhaps provide an example of the equation?

b. Given that the tax office and the land registry are both part of the govt and given that they are always banging on about the efficiencies of digitalisation, why doesn't the tax office get the LR to send the info to it? (I suspect that data protection could be the answer but they are both part of the same state system.)

c. Why does the tax office want the information it already has to be resubmitted?

d. If the software can tell me I'm answering a question requiring a numerical answer wrongly and then tell me when I've got it right, why doesn't it work out what the answer is. (It obviously can't do it because of the hurdle posed by b.)

e. Do politicians ever think when having a bright idea about tax reform?

f. If one annex of your tax return requires 41 pages of guidance, is that not a hint that the form could perhaps do with a bit of simplification?
 
How many French bureaucrats do you think there are in the German tax office?

My missus, French, accountant and damn good with figures had similar battle with a similar property tax declaration. Those brits do not know how lucky they are.
 
One does occasionally hear rumours of the bureaucratic nature of the French state but I've never read further, regarding it as a can of worms which is probably best left unopened.
 
e. Do politicians ever think when having a bright idea about tax reform?
Well there you have it, they just can’t make things easier, or is it the Civil Service?
I was sitting in my accountants office once and as we were talking he pointed out a bookcase behind him which contained tax law, he said that was what it was when he started it’s now superseded by two libraries down the hall.
There is a push in America for a much simpler flat rate tax system which is what I’ve been saying we should have in England for years. This would of course put a lot of Accountants out of business. Vested interests and loopholes so won’t happen.
 
They are not rumours Andy, truth stranger than fiction. The word dossier takes on a whole new significance.
 
HMRC want to start with quarterly returns so it's only going to get worse here.
 
Easy and impossibly difficult, in equal measure.
I've just had my Fonciere bill, the equivalent of Council Tax. €568. In the UK I was paying over £1K, even with the single person's discount. My partner was doing the same. So now I live in a larger house and pay 78% less tax (it lmost makes up for a cabbage costing a fiver). I went online, entered a couple of numbers and paid from my bank account. It probably took 20 minutes.

On the other hand...

I'm trying to Frenchify my car. There is an agreement between our two countries which enables people to import their personal effects without paying import duty. But in order for that to happen, you have to get a form stamped, at the border, on your first visit over with your stuff. I wasn't with the lorry and it didn't happen. I've tried to get the border customs to do it on subsequent trips. They ask where is my stuff, I tell them and they say "Non". So unless I can find a way to get this done retrospectively, I'm either going to have to pay €3K in tax, or return the car to the UK and sell it. I don't want to do either. My car is 9 years old, but has done only 40K miles and I like it. Why would I change it, and, just as importantly, to what?

Of course, none of this was necessary for most of my adult lifetime.
 
Steve,
Surely the steering wheel is on the wrong side, sounds like you are just making a rod for your own back.
Currently you are driving a magnet for every belligerent French policeman in the country.
 
Lurker":34lzxxxs said:
Steve,
Surely the steering wheel is on the wrong side, sounds like you are just making a rod for your own back.
Currently you are driving a magnet for every belligerent French policeman in the country.

Well that is the only good reason I can see for spending an enormous sum of money. But I've had only one encounter withe the Gendarmerie (apparently flashing amber here doesn't mean the same as flashing amber in the UK, not all the time, anyway). It was a lady and a little boy in a policeman's uniform. She gave me a lecture and told me to have a nice day. Fortunately she didn't ask to see my licence and insurance documents, as both were sitting on the table in the UK, and travelling without them here is a tad on the naughty side...
 
thetyreman":2wdb0cj9 said:
HMRC want to start with quarterly returns so it's only going to get worse here.
I can see one possible plus to that which is that you are less likely to lose supporting documentation and memories will be fresher than after a year.

For some people it will fit their way of administering their lives but for the less (fiscally) literate it could become a nightmare. What about if you e.g. change jobs/locations a couple of times in a year?

I bet the tax advisor industry is rubbing its hands though.
 
Steve my experience with driving a UK car was fine until MOT, controle technique, headlamp beam deflectors (sticky plastic in may case) wont do. I had to replace the the whole headlamp unit. On a Citron Berlingo that was not too spendy. I actually traded in my RHD berlingo when I bought the VW and got a price comparable to Uk trade in. That was pre Brexit of course so tax situation was less confluted.

Whenever I have been stopped by the police or gendarmes in old uk reg car or in french one I try to speak my worst franglais. I get the impression the officers cannot be bothered trying to translate. I rarely even get asked to show driving licence. Just smile a lot and denounce brexit.

Bon apres midi
 
My headlamps are already done. I have LED sidelights and they began to conk out. When more then 50% of them stop working it's an MOT failure. I found a Polish bloke in Wakefield who fixes them so I went to see him. I told him what I was planning to do and he said he could change the reflectors for me at the same time. So we spent the afternoon in the Barbara Whosit museum while he fixed my lights and didn't charge me very much money. The biggest price was having to sit through a lecture on why we really should become Scientologists.
I need to be back in the UK before the end of the year, so I'll probably get my car MOT'd again then. My local garage told me it would be OK on the lights if they have sticky tape on them!
I can see me having to buy a new car. It's a totally unnecessary and very significant expenditure.
 
Steve Maskery":2e5z0bn3 said:
Easy and impossibly difficult, in equal measure.
I've just had my Fonciere bill, the equivalent of Council Tax. €568. In the UK I was paying over £1K, even with the single person's discount. My partner was doing the same. So now I live in a larger house and pay 78% less tax (it lmost makes up for a cabbage costing a fiver). I went online, entered a couple of numbers and paid from my bank account. It probably took 20 minutes.

On the other hand...

I'm trying to Frenchify my car. There is an agreement between our two countries which enables people to import their personal effects without paying import duty. But in order for that to happen, you have to get a form stamped, at the border, on your first visit over with your stuff. I wasn't with the lorry and it didn't happen. I've tried to get the border customs to do it on subsequent trips. They ask where is my stuff, I tell them and they say "Non". So unless I can find a way to get this done retrospectively, I'm either going to have to pay €3K in tax, or return the car to the UK and sell it. I don't want to do either. My car is 9 years old, but has done only 40K miles and I like it. Why would I change it, and, just as importantly, to what?

Of course, none of this was necessary for most of my adult lifetime.

I went that route when I bought my motorcycle with me from England. I went to the port and rode the bike home to stop the container crew dropping it when they unloaded the rest of the gear. then I later had to get the relevant import stamp to qualify for duty free. I was directed to a shipping company in the dock area. I explained my need and asked how much the stamp would be. The bastard had me over a barrel, He looked across at his partner, spoke in greek because he knew I did not understand, smiled a lot and made up a number. It cost me 70 euros for an import licence for a motorcycle they never even saw, let alone shipped. Coincidently there were two new mercedes parked outside.

On a better note, my ANNUAL rates are 200 euros. :eusa-dance: :eusa-dance:
 
The Hong Kong tax code, widely held by tax lawyers to be the most admirably efficient in the world, is 276 pages long. The British tax code, rapidly beginning to look like the most disingenuous in the world, is currently in excess of 17,000 pages ...

eight years ago, it's probably a lot more now.
 
sunnybob":1a8txo34 said:
Steve Maskery":1a8txo34 said:
Easy and impossibly difficult, in equal measure.
I've just had my Fonciere bill, the equivalent of Council Tax. €568. In the UK I was paying over £1K, even with the single person's discount. My partner was doing the same. So now I live in a larger house and pay 78% less tax (it almost makes up for a cabbage costing a fiver). I went online, entered a couple of numbers and paid from my bank account. It probably took 20 minutes.

On the other hand...

I'm trying to Frenchify my car. There is an agreement between our two countries which enables people to import their personal effects without paying import duty. But in order for that to happen, you have to get a form stamped, at the border, on your first visit over with your stuff. I wasn't with the lorry and it didn't happen. I've tried to get the border customs to do it on subsequent trips. They ask where is my stuff, I tell them and they say "Non". So unless I can find a way to get this done retrospectively, I'm either going to have to pay €3K in tax, or return the car to the UK and sell it. I don't want to do either. My car is 9 years old, but has done only 40K miles and I like it. Why would I change it, and, just as importantly, to what?

Of course, none of this was necessary for most of my adult lifetime.

I went that route when I bought my motorcycle with me from England. I went to the port and rode the bike home to stop the container crew dropping it when they unloaded the rest of the gear. then I later had to get the relevant import stamp to qualify for duty free. I was directed to a shipping company in the dock area. I explained my need and asked how much the stamp would be. The bastard had me over a barrel, He looked across at his partner, spoke in greek because he knew I did not understand, smiled a lot and made up a number. It cost me 70 euros for an import licence for a motorcycle they never even saw, let alone shipped. Coincidently there were two new mercedes parked outside.

On a better note, my ANNUAL rates are 200 euros. :eusa-dance: :eusa-dance:
 
Back
Top