The Nature of Jazz

[Andy Kev.]

I went to a jazz club with a couple of friends last night. While I wouldn't call myself a jazz fanatic, I probably have more than 30 CDs in my collection and I tend to like the stuff which is rooted in blues i.e. most of it and my outer limit of acceptability is Thelonious Monk. It's quite clear that you can't play jazz unless you are musically competent i.e. know your instrument very well if not inside out.

Anyway, the quartet last night was seriously good. We could have been in a New York nightclub around 1959.

It got me wondering: how can it be that musicians of such consummate quality, playing a kind of music which, when played well, sounds utterly natural (irrespective of its complexity) be so undervalued i.e. few household names, audiences which can only fill smallish clubs and relatively small record sales?

It could be that it's a kind of music which only hits you when you hear it live. I can understand how someone can dismiss a Charlie Parker record after a few seconds of listening but live is another matter.

Thoughts?

 

[Mike G]

I have found myself occasionally in a jazz club enjoying a pleasant evening of music. However, in relation to your comment about the quality of the musicianship, I would just mention that classical musicians' most commonly used expression is "good enough for jazz". In other words, it isn't that demanding, certainly of accuracy, and you can get away with a lot.

 

[RogerS]

....audiences which can only fill smallish clubs ....

That's not strictly true although I agree with you that it tends to be the norm. For example, Dave Brubeck at the Fairfield Halls in Croydon. Buddy Rich and loads of others at Carnegie Hall. Actually I think that Americans appreciate jazz far more than the British. For example, well over 20 jazz clubs in New York. How many in London ? Their bands 'swing' better as well. I can usually tell if a backing band is composed primarily of American vs British musicians.

But there is also the other side of the coin where many great jazz bands/artists are much more suited to a smaller venue. Melody Gardot, for example.

I have two memorable jazz club 'great moments'. Both in New York. The first, in the late 1980's, was when I was in a cab on my way back from a business dinner and all suited up. The cab driver was playing some great jazz on a cassette. I plucked up courage to ask the driver which cassette it was. "It's on the radio", he growled. "Comin' from the BlueNote....over there", he said and pointing. "Stop the cab", I cried. Paid him off, walked into the Bluenote, they were still playing the same piece of music ...magical night.

Second time, around 2012, staying over the weekend after a sales rally. I always refused to fly back in my own time at the weekend since the company insisted on flying us cattle. Wandering the streets late at night and wondering where to go stumbled across Iridium. Wandered in. Table was available. David Murray Octet were scheduled. Got chatting to the couple seated at the next table. They'd flown in specially from Manchester to hear him...they said in hushed and awed tones. "Have you seen him before?", they asked me. "No", I replied. "Is he any good?" ...they looked at me as if I'd slain their first born. Bloody good as it turned out. Cracking night.

 

[Andy Kev.]

I have found myself occasionally in a jazz club enjoying a pleasant evening of music. However, in relation to your comment about the quality of the musicianship, I would just mention that classical musicians' most commonly used expression is "good enough for jazz". In other words, it isn't that demanding, certainly of accuracy, and you can get away with a lot.

That "good enough for jazz" comment is interesting and I'd not heard it before.

Classical music requires great technical mastery and perhaps above all, precision, the idea being mostly to depict exactly what the composer wrote. (I find the term repertoire depressing as it implies simply to repeat what is there.) I slightly know a classical violinist who assures me that there is room for individual expression when playing classical music.

However, I suspect that if a classical musician took the kind of liberties in terms of timing and bending/slurring of notes which are open to and indeed expected of a jazz musician, he or she might find the exit being pointed out to them. The two schools of music are of course not rivals and a person of musical genius will find an outlet for self-expression in either form. Jazz seems to be principally a vehicle for self-expression and classical perhaps a bit less so.

I suppose that a musician is directed by their soul or heart to one of the two forms. We as listeners can enjoy both of course but as a gross generalisation, I would say that when we listen to classical, we are listening to the composer and when we listen to jazz, we are listening to the musician.

 

[Cabinetman]

Quality of musicians, I used to run a big club and hired bands once a week, I think in 10 years there were only a couple who weren’t absolutely brilliant musicians, and I also regularly go to a blues based pub event where the quality of the music is incredible. Tonight and tomorrow we are at a local venue, tonight is a fiddle and violin female duo and tomorrow is American blue grass. Never heard of either of them but have checked them out on Spotify and looking forward to both of them.
You really don’t have to travel far to enjoy a really good live band in this country.

 

[AJB Temple]

The "good enough for Jazz" line was famously used on the song writers circle, where a well known musician Neil Finn was tuning his guitar live. 2004 I think. Three good musicians actually: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Id6fyY8CUkk. It's worth watching Neil sing and play his most famous Crowded House tunes. It's a pop standard 4 chord song. One of the guitarists (Roddy Frame) in particular is good.

Anyway, I trained as a classical pianist to a quite high level and therefore studied music theory and some jazz. I think part of the reason why Jazz is less popular is: a) rarely are the tunes hummable (with a few well known exceptions) and b) it is often background music to something else (such as dinner or dancing). As it is also often improvisational (though less than they would have you believe - see scales below) the tune is played a bit differently each time, so is not that memorable for an audience.

For guitarists (I used to do guitar session work, but not jazz) Jazz is quite tricky because there are a lot of diminished and diminished flat minor chords, and these can be a bit mind bending to work out (partly because of different nomenclature) and can be awkward to finger and are rarely in first position. But like any music, you get used to the shapes quite quickly and it becomes easier.

For the jazz pianist, the chord issue is much the same but fingering is conventional, and you have to learn scales (not difficult) that are not really seen in classical music. For example the super lochrian scale, which a high level classical player who has remembered his theory would call a diminished whole tone or dominant minor. As a fairly experienced classical pianist I can't think of any score from the well known classical composers using that scale, but it is the most common in modern jazz today.

Jazz thrives on a degree of discordancy, which sounds "off" to classical, pop and rock musicians who are trained to be obsessed about being very accurately in tune to 440 or 442. But in reality it's just different and is not dissimilar to a lot of Asian music structure.

Jazz for me is late night relaxed music. I would typically not actually go to watch a Jazz band, though I did go and see Jeff Goldblum do his thing a couple of times. Part of the reason for me not liking it live much, is I am not a fan of shrill horn sounds. I also think the drumming in jazz gets very samey really quickly as the technique is to brush a lot more, the kit is smaller (less varied) and the cymbals (eg 'ride') are much more shrill (deliberately so to cut through the horns etc). Works for me in small doses.

We all like different stuff. I like nearly everything :lol:

 

[RogerS]

......We as listeners can enjoy both of course but as a gross generalisation, I would say that when we listen to classical, we are listening to the composer and when we listen to jazz, we are listening to the musician.

I can see the distinction that you are trying to draw and agree with the latter. But listening to classical music, I think you are listening to the composer, the conductor and the orchestra musicians.

As an aside, when I worked for Logica they sponsored the Beethoven symphonies with Roger Norrington conducting. We'd invite customers etc for pre-concert drinks, interval drinks and then for the lucky few, dinner afterwards with some of the musicians. I found it a privilege to discuss music with the musicians and to get an insight into their working lives.

From the sad ...one violinist very sad because they had been approached to take up a better position with an American orchestra...a good step on their career path but on the hrons of a dilemma as they were a member of a small quartet that was hovering on the outskirts of a record deal. If they left the the quartet would have to start all over again.

To off-the-wall comments from a double bass player who commented that he would be having a bad day if he hadn't played in the orchestra, riffed at some jazz club and been part of a backing group in a recording session.

 

[RogerS]

...... I like nearly everything :lol:

Apart from "wood, engines, electrickery, decorating, gardening or any kind of DIY." ? :eusa-whistle:

Sorry, Adrian, couldn't resist

 

[AJB Temple]

Yes. :lol: all of those are as a result of not being gay. So therefore I have a wife who turns ALL of my at one time perfectly pleasant hobbies into a jobs list that never ends.

 

[Tiresias]

As it is also often improvisational (though less than they would have you believe - see scales below) the tune is played a bit differently each time, so is not that memorable for an audience.

To a large extent I am with AJB on this. I play sax (to a modest level), and I can play trad jazz. Once you have the scales in your head then improvisation isn’t really too hard. Of course it leads to a lot of noodling around that can sound quite samey. To do it well requires just as much skill as classical.

Atonal jazz appeals to me as much as Schoenberg. That is to say not at all. To my mind it’s a bit like art: if you can draw and choose not to then you can be judged by your work. If you can’t then you are a charlatan (maybe that is a bit harsh). That is to say you should have a basic level of skill before you start mucking about.

Now, 80’s pop/rock sax solos… A minority taste on here I suspect, but I was so pleased the first time I struggled through Andy Hamilton’s (no, not that one) solo on Rio. And, Wesley Magoogan’s on Will You. Although, I do still wonder whether the story about him and a circular saw is purely an internet myth.

 

[novocaine]

"Jazz is what you get when you push a blues quartet down a flight of stairs"

I used to play bass along with a few friends who play Jazz guitar, the reason I played bass with them was simple, I couldn't play the guitar with them because my head doesn't like the sound of dimished 3rds and 7ths and my fingers, due to years of playing more typical western chords tended to get tied up. Bass I could handle though as most of it is blues rifs with the occasional flat or sharp chucked in.

I'll stick to blues me thinks. still, Jazz has it's place and I've had many a happy evening in a jazz club (Poland has a thriving Jazz scene that is well worth the trip to Krakow for).

 

[Mike G]

........Now, 80’s pop/rock sax solos… A minority taste on here I suspect......

What you meant to say was "Pink Floyd sax solos". We all knew immediately. Money, Us and Them, Echoes (yes, it's there is you listen hard), Wearing the Inside Out, Shine on You Crazy Diamond.......Dick Parry, originally, for most of them. There are a few more I'll remember in a minute.

 

[AndyP]

Baker Street?

 

[AJB Temple]

I agree about the Pink Floyd sax work. Even Careless Whisper sax sol was good. Always fancied playing the sax and oboe, but have never tried.

I think Candy Dulfer is a very good saxophonist and she is fun live. Here she is in a session, and covers jazz, fusion and rock quite effortlessly> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PF3Hk6CR0rU

The guitarist in this session is good too. See her live if you get the chance and if she is still playing. (Dutch - it was a while ago when I lived there).

 

[Woodbloke]

Yes. :lol: all of those are as a result of not being gay. So therefore I have a wife who turns ALL of my at one time perfectly pleasant hobbies into a jobs list that never ends.

The 'murricans have a name for one of those; a 'honey doo list' apparently :lol: - Rob

 

[Tiresias]

........Now, 80’s pop/rock sax solos… A minority taste on here I suspect......

What you meant to say was "Pink Floyd sax solos". We all knew immediately. Money, Us and Them, Echoes (yes, it's there is you listen hard), Wearing the Inside Out, Shine on You Crazy Diamond.......Dick Parry, originally, for most of them. There are a few more I'll remember in a minute.

Ha ha. We are firmly of different generations. GenX vs Boomer (not using either pejoratively).

AJB: Careless Whisper – the one I know – was Steve Gregory I think, and one of the easier ones to play.

But the sax is something it is easy to play… but hard to play well. I have never achieved it. Another that occurs to me is the wonderfully named Gary Barnacle who did the solo on China in Your Hands.

I’m now trying to remember who Bowie used, although he played it himself of course.

And I’ve just thought of Clarence Clemons. Great growling down the sax sound. Is that old enough for you?

Baker Street. Raf Ravenscroft. An albatross around the neck of any sax player. I think John Finnemore did a sketch entirely about a sax player who couldn’t play it.

I’ve left out Steve Norman as well. Probably just as well.

 

[RogerS]

Friend of mine teaches saxophone. He also played and owned a bass sax. His son played in one of the London orchestras and they were rehearsing a Mahler symphony ( I don't recall which one) which featured a bass sax in quite a prominent role . Not many of those players around TBH. During the rehearsal the bass sax player took a tumble and broke his wrist. The conductor was not a happy bunny.

"Where can I get a bass sax player at this late hour?"

"My dad ?" replied his son. They sent a car from London to Malvern to collect Baz and his sax.

 

[AndyP]

Thanks chaps. While Googling Jazz I happened upon a reference to Steely Dan. Of course whether it is Jazz or Jazz fusion is up to others to debate. I haven’t listened to them for maybe 30 years. Just found the only album of theirs I have on Qobuz. Can’t Buy a Thrill. Great stuff, IMHO of course.

Ahhh the memories

 

[Windows]

Maybe jazz is undervalued because it’s pretty nebulous. To me, the subgenres are so different that it creates a marketing problem. On the one hand, you’ve got noodling and on the other you’ve got melody. If you say “jazz”, what do people today understand it to mean? Are big band, swing, Ella, & Frank (& Buble) still seen as jazz? Is that the kind of jazz you mean when you say it’s undervalued?

 

[Andy Kev.]

Maybe jazz is undervalued because it’s pretty nebulous. To me, the subgenres are so different that it creates a marketing problem. On the one hand, you’ve got noodling and on the other you’ve got melody. If you say “jazz”, what do people today understand it to mean? Are big band, swing, Ella, & Frank (& Buble) still seen as jazz? Is that the kind of jazz you mean when you say it’s undervalued?

I'd avoid a discussion of the various genres (too complicated, too much dubious material). As with most kinds of music, it's perhaps a good idea to start with some of the recognised classics. FWIW I reckon that a piece of jazz should have a melody and improvisation upon a theme of that melody:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHzJjmK ... mKPPV4&t=8

The link will take you to the Best of Sonny Rollins Volume 1 and the first track, called Decision, is as good an example as any that I can think of.

 

[RogerS]

.... Just found the only album of theirs I have on Qobuz. .....

My work is done

 

[AJB Temple]

Tiresias - China in Your Hand. Yes. Good solo. Oddly enough I had not heard that track for years, and then it came up yesterday or the day before. It transpired I can still remember the lyrics. Carol Decker was good singer. She was on woman's hour this week on Radio 4.

 

[Cabinetman]

I had forgotten that when I had the club we had Jazz twice a month, (not organised by me) top names in British Jazz, and we even got a mention in the Guardian as one of the best places to hear quality Jazz.
Point is that when it came to paying Performing Rights the Jazz nights weren’t charged for as they claimed it was made up as they went along. Obviously not true but it suited me!

 

[AJB Temple]

Well I bet they did play it differently every time! Was it Eric Moorcambe who said to Andre Previn, " I can play all the right notes, but not necessarily in the right order" ? Some think that defines Jazz.

When I attended music college as a mature student we had a theory lecturer who tongue in cheek defined jazz chords as "like you use for classical theory, but with different notes and made up chord names".

I would think for performing rights purposes you could make a similar argument for blues: "it's only one tune so we just pay once." I woke up this morning.....

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I was talking to a woman I used to work with whose husband taught jazz at the sixth form college. She asked what sort of music I listened to, and I replied a mixture really, classical, rock, folk, opera, reggae, quite a range of stuff ...
No jazz? No, no jazz - I do not like jazz. Ah, she said, that's because you are musically illiterate. :lol:

 

[Alf]

Alan Plater described jazz as coming in three varieties:

"Hot", "Cool", and "What Time Does The Tune Start?"

 

[Sheffield Tony]

As my son's guitar teacher said, one wrong note is a mistake. A whole host of them, and it's jazz !

 

[Pete Maddex]

Japinese death jazz

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Pete

 

[Eric the Viking]

The irascible Thomas Beecham had a saying, that "A gentleman is someone who knows how to play a Saxophone... but doesn't."

But I love most jazz, apart from the really free-form stuff. Scored a Humphrey Lyttleton CD in Oxfam last Wednesday as a matter of fact.

 

[AJB Temple]

Don't really understand why the Japanese sextet call their stuff "Death" Jazz. It sounds very pop / swing oriented to me. When you play a few of their tracks though, the familiar problem with Jazz tends to crop up - it all sounds a bit the same. It can be formulaic: here's a drum paradiddle, here's a standard sax solo etc.

Interesting video though and thanks for posting. Had not seen them before. That is a very short pink dress she's almost wearing. Could do without the spider though. I detest spiders!

 

[TrimTheKing]

I can’t comment on any of the technical musical elements as I’m devoid of musical training though I taught myself to drum well enough to perform in the school band a few times in senior school. I am contemplating guitar lessons though, because I don’t already have enough distractions in my life…

Anyway, someone in here has has mentioned the Soil & “Pimp” Sessions before and I quite like this one of theirs, though I do appreciate the sax related comments as my least favourite part is the saxophonists bonkers solo near the start.

I like the piano but then when the brass comes in again after that but i think Jazz is not really for me. Wonder if Dave Grohl plays any jazz…


[youtubessl]AQMgXPFzdg8[/youtubessl]

 

[Pete Maddex]

Jazz and rap?

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Or something a bit more livley

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Pete

 

[TrimTheKing]

Nah, not digging it.

 

[Eric the Viking]

Anybody else collect Grover Washington Jr. (jazz) CDs?

He's best known for the crossover-pop hit, "Just the Two of Us" from the "Winelight" album, but he was a fine jazz saxophonist.

My favourite album is "Then & Now", with Tommy Flanagan and Herbie Hancock on piano. In particular, Tommy Flanagan's piano break on "Something Borrowed, Something Blue" never seems to age.

Grover died far too young, sadly, too.

E.
[youtubessl]MmloTaDdUHk[/youtubessl]

 

[Sheffield Tony]

But I love most jazz, apart from the really free-form stuff. Scored a Humphrey Lyttleton CD in Oxfam last Wednesday as a matter of fact.

I might have mentioned this before ...

I used to help out my friend who did sound and lighting for events mostly around Oxford. At Magdalen college ball he asked me to "look after" the sound for the Jazz stage. I was expecting a few ageing Oxford dons or something. But no, it was Humphrey Lyttleton. Now, I am not into jazz, am musically illiterate, know a bit more about sound but not enough. Rarely felt so out of my depth. But he was a gent.